MAFIA (Out of Game)

[Elle Joyner]

I mean... Maybe it's just me. But I found the last few games to be incredibly boring lol. I dunno... The lack of varying roles, the lack of night actions... Not to mention people with power roles being MiA and townies having nothing to do but guess. Mafia with Vanilla townie roles works in a group of people IRL because it's quick and there's more interaction. But on a text forum it just becomes stagnant.

It's never really going to become Town of Salem because the mechanics are entirely different. Town of Salem is played out differently. It's faster paced, and all tge strategies are for fast paced planning. All that's really being suggested is adding some more depth with new and varying roles and giving people roles instead of vanilla... Which is boring to play, and really, adds nothing to the game besides a lynch vote or victim.

As is, there are a great deal of flaws with the current system, especially for the long term. After two or three games it just starts feeling like the same game over again. I don't personally ever see an issue with trying something new and if it doesn't work it doesn't work. But if we're just gonna keep it as is, without any alterations, I'll just respectfully bow out.

 

[LuckycoolHawk9]

I mean... Maybe it's just me. But I found the last few games to be incredibly boring lol. I dunno... The lack of varying roles, the lack of night actions... Not to mention people with power roles being MiA and townies having nothing to do but guess. Mafia with Vanilla townie roles works in a group of people IRL because it's quick and there's more interaction. But on a text forum it just becomes stagnant.

I can agree with that. Actually, I think the last game was incredibly boring. Listen, if by the end of the game, if want you to kill me to just get it over with, then I really didn't enjoy the game. Also, maybe it's because it's the ( I don't know, it's a lot) time I was vanilla townie, I could do nothing.

It's never really going to become Town of Salem because the mechanics are entirely different. Town of Salem is played out differently. It's faster paced, and all tge strategies are for fast paced planning. All that's really being suggested is adding some more depth with new and varying roles and giving people roles instead of vanilla... Which is boring to play, and really, adds nothing to the game besides a lynch vote or victim.

I agree with you there.

As is, there are a great deal of flaws with the current system, especially for the long term. After two or three games it just starts feeling like the same game over again. I don't personally ever see an issue with trying something new and if it doesn't work it doesn't work. But if we're just gonna keep it as is, without any alterations, I'll just respectfully bow out.

I think that is especially true when the randomizer picks the same people as mafia. I want some variety. I love playing forum mafia, but sometimes I'm bored out of my mind. ( Especially this game. I love your gming description @Kimberlyn but there were points that I felt you just weren't that interested in the game and there were certainly times where votes never finished because the voting phase didn't have a warning when to end)

 

[Rae]

Yeah, I'll have to apologize on my end for this last one, guys. Part of it was definitely my fault. It wasn't for lack of interest, but I'll just give a brief overview that my last few months have been really shitty in general. It was very difficult to keep up with everything, and I honestly had other priorities. So I apologize. D: Part of the reason I wanted to GM was because I wanted to add my own flair of creativity, but my life ended up going up shit creek this summer for a variety of reasons.

At least for the next couple of games, I'm probably just going to spectate. I do like playing, but I've got too much going on right now to give proper time to this at the moment. :(

 

[Lusterine]

-I feel like the basic mechanics we've had have worked fine. Sure, we've had some rough games, but just because of that isn't a reason to change the base mechanics, I don't think. Town have won some games, mafia have won some games, neutrals have won some games--all normal and not as a result of faulty mechanics, at least IMO. This is another part of the earlier point.

-While I get the desire to always have a power role, I personally think vanillas are an important part of the game. That said, we've done full role games before, so -shrugs-

To be fair, we were maf last round. It was perfectly fine for us, of course, but if people who were town are having problems, then there's some serious legitimacy that shouldn't be brushed off. I'm not gonna lie, the game was far too easy for us, and that's not fair. I'd be one thing if it was just that we outplayed town, but that just wasn't the case.

I agree that vanilla townie are important, but town could use teeth. How do you feel about added one or two more town roles and rotating third maf role? Town and maf have their own strengths and weaknesses, but the strengths are unbalanced right now.

 

[RJS]

I'm going to throw my hat into the ring here.

There was a reason why the mafia had a very easy ride of it last game. Nobody had the conviction to push for a lynch. It's pointless having a role call if you do nothing with the information. It's pointless having a role call if you don't use lynch pressure to force everyone to participate. An incomplete role call only helps the mafia, since it exposes town power roles while retaining enough ambiguity to protect them.

Here's a change I would suggest that would be a lot simpler than copy-pasting Town of Salem rules, and that worked well on the last forum I played mafia on.

There is no minimum vote requirement to lynch, and each day the person with the most votes is lynched.
​

This has a few knock-on effects. It forces people to be more active, and to be more proactive. It also forces the mafia to engage with the voting process, which can be a very useful way to catch them. It also means that people who behave shadily end up under vote pressure, which can cause them to slip up and expose themselves. Part of the reason people feel that the town lacks teeth is because it seems like nobody really engages with casting votes. Make it so that a single vote can cause someone to be lynched and I guarantee you'll see some results.

 

[The_J]

I like the idea of RJ's rule. I don't think it's a good idea to completely shake up the role list just based on such limited info - last game dragged, yeah, but it wasn't necessarily entirely due to the role list, and it seemed to be somewhat of an outlier in any case. Let's just go with RJ's rule for now since it's a much smaller change but would still fix the problem we were having last game.

 

[Elle Joyner]

But the problem remains that no one wants to be a vanilla townie. We need to factor that in, too.

 

[Lusterine]

I can support this movement. If this doesn't improve than maybe a role list IS needed. I think that perhaps adding one more role could just be a fun addition?

 

[Elle Joyner]

Can I ask what the hesitation is on getting rid of Vanillas? I'm confused why they're necessary? I understand not wanting to add a bunch of new roles, but even doubling up on a few would be an acceptable alternative. I'm just not sure why Vanillas are necessary at all when they add so little. I'm also concerned that with no required vote-to-lynch amount we're gonna wind up with a mess... Because all Mafia needs to do is vote to lynch one person each day, early on, last minute and they'll win within four rounds.

I agree we need more movement, but person with the most votes being lynched seems stacked greatly in mafia favor.

 

[Lusterine]

@Elle Joyner I can't answer why vanillas are so necessary, but is the problem with the games the lack of night action? or is it that town isn't willing to actually do something at all?

The first can be solved by adding more roles, but the second cannot be. Early on, there was opportunity to mislynch and still be okay. However, town sat around and didn't bother.

If the lack of action is the problem, what is a better way than reducing the vote requirements. I think we should potentially have a nomination phase (in which the majority nominate and discuss a candidate) and then a voting phase (same as usual). Either way, if town wants to sit around and do nothing, then they'll be punished. Vanilla townies have some use in that be a bit bolder than power role townies. If there's a mentality of "I'm useless", there's no way town will win in the first place. Doctors, TI, and more usually don't want to draw suspicion towards themselves, and a list of just power roles might lead to more passivity.

I think that one game should be run with the different voting requirements, and then it can be evaluated again. I think @RJS @Joan @The_J could agree with that?

 

[RJS]

Can I ask what the hesitation is on getting rid of Vanillas? I'm confused why they're necessary? I understand not wanting to add a bunch of new roles, but even doubling up on a few would be an acceptable alternative. I'm just not sure why Vanillas are necessary at all when they add so little. I'm also concerned that with no required vote-to-lynch amount we're gonna wind up with a mess... Because all Mafia needs to do is vote to lynch one person each day, early on, last minute and they'll win within four rounds.

I agree we need more movement, but person with the most votes being lynched seems stacked greatly in mafia favor.

That scenario that you describe will only happen if the town is completely passive on voting. Even if it does happen once, that's a mafia member outed essentially. If the town doesn't punish that on the next lynch they deserve to lose.

As far as I can tell, the issue with dragging games is not because we don't have enough roles, but because the town waits for either an investigation or LYLO before voting because they don't want to mislynch. Adding more town power roles doesn't help reduce that - if anything it will make people even more reluctant to vote.

Vanilla townies are useful because their entire utility is built around the discussion. With more voting it is possible to analyse voting patterns to gather information, as well as being able to be aggressive.

Town of Salem works with so many power roles because there is so little time for discussion. With a forum format the vanilla townies can get stuck in.

 

[Elle Joyner]

I guess I'm looking at it differently. Maybe because the two people I've talked to who played vanilla townie weren't happy with it. Namely Lucky... Who's been vanilla consistently for what... Five games now? And Cloudy, who was so bored by the role last game she stopped following the game at all cause she forgot about it lol.

I agree that voting is part of it... But I don't think it's the whole of the issue. The boring nature comes from everyone claiming Vanilla and there being no way to distinguish whether it's a lie or not cause Vanillas don't have an culpability. There's no way to set them apart from each other. Literally everyone can claim Vanilla and there's no way to counterclaim with proof... No way tl determine a lie. Thus why it becomes boring AND why no one wants to vote.

If we have a roster full of roles and three people claim doctor when there's only two docs, it's a different scenario. The other roles know who to investigate... Mafia knows who to target and the game becomes a game... A challenge. Instead of us sitting around chatting numbers and deciding whether to randomly lynch someone to see if a basic gut instinct was right or not.

 

[LuckycoolHawk9]

I guess I'm looking at it differently. Maybe because the two people I've talked to who played vanilla townie weren't happy with it. Namely Lucky... Who's been vanilla consistently for what... Five games now? And Cloudy, who was so bored by the role last game she stopped following the game at all cause she forgot about it lol.

I agree that voting is part of it... But I don't think it's the whole of the issue. The boring nature comes from everyone claiming Vanilla and there being no way to distinguish whether it's a lie or not cause Vanillas don't have an culpability. There's no way to set them apart from each other. Literally everyone can claim Vanilla and there's no way to counterclaim with proof... No way tl determine a lie. Thus why it becomes boring AND why no one wants to vote.

If we have a roster full of roles and three people claim doctor when there's only two docs, it's a different scenario. The other roles know who to investigate... Mafia knows who to target and the game becomes a game... A challenge. Instead of us sitting around chatting numbers and deciding whether to randomly lynch someone to see if a basic gut instinct was right or not.

I agree with Elle on this. Also I hate to disagree but Vanilla townie don't generate discussion at all. We are simply mafia fodder or lynch fodder. There is no strategy to being vanilla townie because YOU can't prove it. Your only hope is that you catch on to the mafia and even then you don't get results if town didn't agree. I suspect RJS as soon as the Elle thing and all the dancing around the voting made it impossible. I never feel challenged playing vanilla.

The few times I felt a semblance of coolness and strategy was when I had a role. When I was ret, I had to be careful and figure things out ( and I screwed up on that). When I was vampire, I had time to strategize and felt the thrill of the game. Heck, when I got to play survivor, there is a strategy of being careful when to vest and who to side with.

As survivor, you have to stay under the radar or make a choice.

The problem with vanilla is all in the title. We're vanilla. We can change the game, but it rarely happens since we don't know who to trust and who it is betrayed.

 

[The_J]

I guess I'm looking at it differently. Maybe because the two people I've talked to who played vanilla townie weren't happy with it. Namely Lucky... Who's been vanilla consistently for what... Five games now? And Cloudy, who was so bored by the role last game she stopped following the game at all cause she forgot about it lol.

I agree that voting is part of it... But I don't think it's the whole of the issue. The boring nature comes from everyone claiming Vanilla and there being no way to distinguish whether it's a lie or not cause Vanillas don't have an culpability. There's no way to set them apart from each other. Literally everyone can claim Vanilla and there's no way to counterclaim with proof... No way tl determine a lie. Thus why it becomes boring AND why no one wants to vote.

If we have a roster full of roles and three people claim doctor when there's only two docs, it's a different scenario. The other roles know who to investigate... Mafia knows who to target and the game becomes a game... A challenge. Instead of us sitting around chatting numbers and deciding whether to randomly lynch someone to see if a basic gut instinct was right or not.

I agree with Elle on this. Also I hate to disagree but Vanilla townie don't generate discussion at all. We are simply mafia fodder or lynch fodder. There is no strategy to being vanilla townie because YOU can't prove it. Your only hope is that you catch on to the mafia and even then you don't get results if town didn't agree. I suspect RJS as soon as the Elle thing and all the dancing around the voting made it impossible. I never feel challenged playing vanilla.

The few times I felt a semblance of coolness and strategy was when I had a role. When I was ret, I had to be careful and figure things out ( and I screwed up on that). When I was vampire, I had time to strategize and felt the thrill of the game. Heck, when I got to play survivor, there is a strategy of being careful when to vest and who to side with.

As survivor, you have to stay under the radar or make a choice.

The problem with vanilla is all in the title. We're vanilla. We can change the game, but it rarely happens since we don't know who to trust and who it is betrayed.

In all fairness, might this not be due to the fact that 1) you were townie so many times that it could only get boring and 2) you weren't playing it to its fullest potential? Like RJ subscribes, the townies can put themselves out there, take risks, get the mafia targeting them rather than anyone else by hounding anyone suspicious and making themselves more of a priority target than a power role just due to how forceful they are in the conversation.

 

[Elle Joyner]

But if the only way for Vanilla townies to be useful is to be forceful or take risks... Why not just make them into power roles instead? I'm still failing to see why we need vanilla roles. I understand they CAN be useful and even how... But what I'm asking is why are they necessary? I guess I'm not understanding why they make the game better.

Adding more roles or doubling roles feels like the same concept, but with more purpose/engagement. I feel like the point of what Lucky is saying is if someone has to work that hard to enjoy themself in the game, something is wrong with the structure of the role... rather than the person.

 

[LuckycoolHawk9]

In all fairness, might this not be due to the fact that 1) you were townie so many times that it could only get boring and 2) you weren't playing it to its fullest potential? Like RJ subscribes, the townies can put themselves out there, take risks, get the mafia targeting them rather than anyone else by hounding anyone suspicious and making themselves more of a priority target than a power role just due to how forceful they are in the conversation.

For one, possibly.

For two, there is no way to play it to its fullest potential. The second you try to take a semblance of power, one of two things happen in these games. Thing one, you die. Do not pass go. Dead. Thing two, you become the target for the mafia to claim you are mafia because you are playing too aggressively.

Adding more roles or doubling roles feels like the same concept, but with more purpose/engagement. I feel like the point of what Lucky is saying is if someone has to work that hard to enjoy themself in the game, something is wrong with the structure of the role... rather than the person.

I agree with this statement.

 

[Rae]

If I might add in my two cents, I do not think it will harm anything to at least try what Elle and Lucky propose. Give the idea a trial run and then discuss the results after the game. I think that would be a better way to resolve this than going in circles. :3

 

[Lusterine]

Okay, let's go section by section and see what roles we can add and why.

I've spoken great length about Jailor, and the lack of a functioning way for them to actual use their TI side.
For investigation, I like our LO/Tracker duo. They are two townies that can rely on each other. Detective is useful. Having another detective might be too much power for town.

Investigator is useless considering we aren't going to implement some of the roles in the game. Janitor, for instance, isn't worth it. Roles or alignment aren't revealed with night deaths. If we were to say that those 'cleaned' couldn't speak to the medium, then we might as well not have a medium.

3 TI is solid.

TK, I'm a fan of adding a Vig. Maybe a vet?

1-2.

TP- A BG and a Doc. any more and then there is a crazy chance of maf just outright not killing anything. it needs to be possible, but not probable

1-2 TP

TS- Med, Ret, Mayor or Transporter. They can swap slots at night. Transporter forces town to actually communicate, bc LO and detective are never sure who they saw.

2 TS?

1-2 vanilla townie to fill to a round number.


Mafia
1 GF
1 Mafioso
1-2 rotating role- escort, consig, framer.

Survivor or Exe.

To keep the roles talking, we'll implemented the new voting/lynching system.

 

[Elle Joyner]

Can we nail down the process for the new voting system? Cause I'm not 100% sure what we're looking at for that.

 

[Lusterine]

Two systems to consider:

1) voting phase only- person with the most votes is lynched by the end of phase.
2) nominating + voting phase - person with most nominations is put up on stand.
----------guilty/inno/abstain.
-------------------majority inno, nominee is let go, night phase begins
-------------------majority guilty, nominee is lynched, night phase begins.