So...DCEU Isn't Doing That Great. Let's Fix That!

[Quiet One]

You can like or hate the MCU. You can like or hate the DCEU. But I think there's no debating that Marvel is doing significantly better than DC in terms of box office and setting up their universe. And DC's attempts to catch up to Marvel have ended up backfiring and screwing them over time and time again. There's even the argument that the characters in the movies aren't true to the characters from the comics. This is especially pointed at Batman and Superman, who Zack Snyder has more or less written as the same character with varying degrees of psychopathy.

The sad thing is, though, that DC deserves success. Arguably it deserves it more than Marvel. Superman is the original superhero - he's the first, with Batman coming a very close second. They're iconic and so many of the other ways they've been represented were respectful to the source material and at the same time updated.

So this thread is kind of a discussion on how you'd make a cinematic universe for DC's heroes. I at first wanted to dive into how I'd do it, but that'd make this into a mile-long post. So maybe if I did brief summaries...

Movie 1: Superman
My intro to Superman would take place almost entirely in Smallville, where he's about college age and trying to decide where he's going to intern in Metropolis (Daily Planet or Lex Corp. Obvious which one he chooses). However, over that summer he finally learns he's Kryptonian and Brainiac - who in this version had been a part of Krypton's destruction like in the animated series - has come in a stolen ship and every night sends drones to try and capture him because he wants to learn why Superman is so strong on Earth.

Movie 2: Batman
Batman's movie actually doesn't have Batman as the focus at all. It's almost more about the origin of Robin. It starts off after the death of the Flying Graysons where Bruce understandably feels guilty for failing him in stopping the criminal. Dick Grayson is left an orphan and runs away from the orphanage, lost in anger and pain. He actually ends up getting recruited by the Penguin, along with other inexperienced thugs including a failed comedian named Jack Napier. Batman himself never appears until the end of the movie. You see Bruce, but Batman is treated like the monster in a horror movie - never shown until the final climax. In it Dick breaks down and Batman comforts him and Jack falls into some acid. Boom. Origin of Robin and origin of the Joker in the same movie.

Movie 3: Wonder Woman
Unfortunately, I know very little about the character outside the DC movie (the only one that was unquestionably good) so it'd be hard to top it. Would have to do a lot more research on her. I know she's weak to bondage, but that doesn't help much.

Movie 4: Superman II
This time Superman's in Metropolis, getting to know and getting close to his partner, Lois Lane. His prime enemy here is Lex, where he interrupts weapons deals and goes up against his thugs. What he doesn't know is Brainiac from the last movie downloaded himself into Lex's satellite and has been helping him up his research and tech. Which is why he also ups his thugs, helping Lex create Metallo to fight Superman.

Movie 4: Aquaman
Same problem as Wonder Woman: research is required. He's never been that interesting to me because his powers are useless as soon as you leave the ocean. So being in the ocean/on the coast would have to be the whole setting of the movie. Maybe give him water-control powers? Does he have those already?

Movie 5: Batman II
Batman and new young Robin go up against the Joker. Creation of Harley. Possible cameo from Batman's rogue's gallery.

Movie 6: Flash
Again, sadly, I don't know too many of his villains. I mean, I know about Reverse Flash and Godspeed but I don't know where they came from.

Movie 7: Martian Manhunter
Again, research is needed. I know his powers, but little else. Spend some time on Mars, though. Maybe have a superman cameo? Definitely thinking about having a memorial for a fallen Martian Green Lantern.

Movie 8: Green Lantern
In this version, Hal Jordan has been a Green Lantern for a long time - at least ten years - and he comes back to Earth weakened with a spare Ring, which he's keeping from Sinestro, who followed him to Earth. This isn't Hal Jordan's story, though, but John Stewart's (not the Daily Show guy), where he learns to be a Green Lantern under the instruction of Hal, who has to be a guardian of the universe while John stays as a Guardian of Earth.

Movie 9: Superman III
Superman fights Darkseid's son (forgot his name). Hints at coming of Darkseid.

Movie 10: Superman meets Batman
If you saw the animated series crossover in the 90s, you pretty much know what's going on here.

I could go further, but think I've made too big of a post already. But that's the first ten movies. How would you guys make a new DCEU?

 

[Vars]

God DC/WB makes me disappointed.

All they have to do is adapt some of their animated properties. Not all of them are the best, but they're all better than the live action crap they've been shelling out lately. There are so many examples of ensemble films you can jump into without needing to do several "backstory" movies first.

Overall I wish they'd just stop trying to copy Marvel. Marvel has their own format and formula. DC is more well-known for it's "dark" and "grittiness"
Don't change it to be more like marvel, just take more time to actually make some good fucking movies.

That being said, it seems like DCEU is moving more toward a lot of standalone movies that just happen to take place in the same universe, rather than the TV show where every movie is an episode format like Marvel.
And I hope that really works out for them, because I'm not a fan of Marvel's format and (I might be in the minority here) despite being a fan of most of the characters, I find the latest movies pretty darn boring, so I just don't bother anymore (and yeah, I did see Infinity War).


If I could back in time and be in charge of the DC Cinematic Universe, the first thing I'd do is pick someone who was intimately familiar with the comics and/or animated properties, but also had at least some film experience, and then place them somewhere at the top of the chain of command to make sure all the cinematic properties stayed true to the spirit of the original characters and had consistent continuity. That is something that Marvel did and it's the only thing I'd "copy" from them.
And I think (but I can't remember for sure) that DC/WB finally did this with Geoff Johns. So hopefully, going forward, DC will have less issues with their properties.

DC's characters are (or were) more well-known than Marvel's. They need to stop wasting time on backstories for these characters. Let them just exist and tell a story. And for fuck's sake, can we get one fucking Batman movie where we DON'T see his stupid parents dying? Take a cue from Spiderman and let it go.


I'm just incredibly disappointed, honestly. I don't understand how you can take properties like Batman and Superman and fuck them up to not have a good box office return.
They could've been shitting out dollar bills but they screwed up SO BADLY they actually HARMED their properties. HOW?? (Don't answer that, I know how, but the fact that it was even allowed to happen is astounding.)

All that aside, I am looking forward to Shazam (the irony of it following a Marvel-like formula isn't lost on me). I hope it doesn't suck.

Edit:
More to the point of your post, I'd do the DCEU as a series of movies that were all standalone that happened to take place in the same universe. But they wouldn't be superhero movies. They would be other-genre movies that happened to have superheroes as characters in them.
A very key difference.

My first entry into the DCEU would be a horror movie about Professor Pyg, who Batman eventually overtakes. But Batman isn't even a main character. The focus is the horror of Pyg.

Might be ok with making Gordon a main character as a detective, having him find the aftermath of each Pyg murder. Could be a detective story instead of a horror (although I'd much prefer the straight horror).
There is all this foreshadowing of a vigilante (who happens to be Batman) but he isn't really seen on screen. At the end have Pyg tied up on the steps of GCPD HQ with a batman symbol stapled to the rope or something.

But if we did the Horror route I'd prefer to take, it would show the final battle between Batman and Pyg, but treat Batman as more of a supernatural force (not that he actually is one, but it would be filmed to frame it this way).

Hell, don't even involve Batman at all in the marketing. Just let it be a surprise like the Glass franchise.

 

[Shiri]

I'd strip away some of the grimdark "realism" they've become infatuated with.

Superman in particular bugs me the most since they seem to have peeled away the hopefulness that is usually prevalent in his comics. Yes, yes humanity has a dark side, but it doesn't mean we should undersell the good bits. Superman is supposed to expose those good bits and more. He is an ideal. We should be inspired by Superman's good qualities to in turn better ourselves. I just haven't been feeling that out of what I've seen of the new movie depictions. He comes off as a detached jerk.

With Batman I'd tone down the whole "my parents died so that made me a monster" thing that keeps popping up recently. Let's reel it in and use the death of his parents instead as a motivator for our favorite dark detective, so his past doesn't hog the entire story.

And give me Bruce and Clark's meetings in Bibbo's Diner.

Can't really speak for the rest of the DC superheroes. Haven't been exposed to much of them besides Wonder Woman and I haven't watched her new origin film, so yeah.

 

[Quiet One]

Thanks guys. @Shiri that's kind of what I'm using as my basis for the movie set up I listed.

@Vars I like that idea too. Kind of going the Logan route, which was very much a post-western with X-Men.

 

[Quiet One]

So, I feel like I should say something now that it's happened...

I finally watched Batman v. Superman last night. Everything I knew about the movie originally is from people breaking down the film and descriptions of what works and what doesn't. Honestly, I was expecting a train wreck from all I've heard. But...it wasn't as bad as I thought it was. For the established characters, they're motivations didn't seem that unbelievable and neither did their actions.

But...that does lead to the biggest problem in the movie: the characters themselves. I found Batman to be just this bitter psycho, and Superman started good, showing a montage of him helping people and being willing to come to the capitol as they try to put limits on him, but as the movie went on he got...less likeable. He seemed to grow more selfish as the movie went on, eventually ending with him agreeing to kill Batman to save his own mom and that "You are my world" line to Lois when fighting Doomsday (or should I say Nuclear Man 2.0). He went from caring about and trying to protect the world to just wanting Lois, to only being a hero to keep her safe. Really?

And Lex...oh God, where to start with Lex? He was insane, and not in the cold, calculating way we always get for Luthor. This guy was a spaz, seemed to suffer from severe ADHD (as someone diagnosed with it as a child I can say that) and was obsessed with the Greeks and gods to the point where I had to see if the movie was somehow talking out of my ass. And he actually seemed to embody what I thought was the biggest problem with the movie, what it's overarching theme was, and that's that absolute good does not exist. The message the movie hammered in was that altruism and heroism and true sacrifice aren't real and that they're stupid to believe in. Zack. Zack...come here...THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF SUPERMAN!! You point out in Man of Steel that the "S" on his chest means "Hope" on Krypton, but then in BvS you basically destroy that whole message?!

I guess at its heart, that's what this thread is trying to fix. To bring back the heroes that did the right thing just because it was the right thing. That stood for hope and helping people. Superman didn't become a hero because his father hammered in what a messiah he was. He did it because he knew he could help us and just decided to in the best way he thought he could. Batman wasn't torn up into a bitter nut branding criminals because he was eternally traumatized by the death of his parents. He was hurt by his broken city and vowed to fix it, wanting more than anything to keep what happened to him from happening to anyone else.

If I knew more hero lore I could probably go on like this forever, but this is the point of this thread. Marvel characters from the beginning were very human; they had human flaws and human problems and often got into being heroes for initially selfish reasons. That's great - it makes them interesting and complex characters to know that they're fighting for themselves as much as for us. But the Justice League fought exclusively for us; trauma may have shaped them, but they used it as a shield to protect others from that same pain. They could never have normal lives, but they could ensure that we could. And it's a shame that Wonder Woman is the only movie of WB's to get that simple thing right. Wonder Woman was an awesome movie, but the care she got the others deserved just as much.

 

[Fyrra]

It's probably a good idea to research Aquaman because he's basically on even footing with anyone else on the DC Hero roster. Even if you believe the joke that he's useless outside of the ocean, which is probably a joke written by someone who hasn't even read the comics but just went along with the Super Friends cartoons casually, the amount of physical training required to withstand water pressure alone in the ocean's deeper parts would be inhuman, let alone swimming quickly. But then again, superior strength and speed are kind of dull on the spectrum of "hero abilities."

I'd pitch something about this, but all I really know of Aquaman is stuff I've heard from an old comicbook dork roomie of mine. But, basically anything would work for an Aquaman movie if movie audiences were interested in something "fresh." People don't pay to see Superman and hope for General Zod. They don't even know who General Zod is! They want Lex, Joker, Angry Batman, not Batman-who-wants-to-help-the-villains-overcome-their-psychosis. Who the F is Cheetah?

You get the idea.

But you know what I'd really like to see? Changes to the universe, like that one Flash movie where the heroes were a lot less heroic, but a bit more pronounced. A roster that didn't reek of propaganda, like heroes cooperating with police, being from military backgrounds if they're human, or Poison Ivy being a portrayal of environmentalists and a villain because environmentalism is bad. A batman who fights poverty. An end to the belief that actually killing someone would make them "just as bad" as the villains. Like, I get why Batman doesn't. And Superman too.

Heroes with a criminal background. Cheetah? Yes. A movie about Cheetah. A heroic Cheetah movie.

Wait, no, I saw Wonder Woman. The studios would try to force a romance subplot in because of course they would.

edit: *totally not doing a search on AO3 for Wonder Woman x Cheetah fics several hours later*

 

[Quiet One]

@Fyrra...who the F is Cheetah?

Yeah, the romance subplot in Wonder Woman was pretty dumb, but they didn't seem to put a lot of focus on it, so it didn't bother me that much. The relationship was there, but it didn't impact much of anything. Until the end, at least. As good as I thought the movie was, Wonder Woman did kind of drop the ball in the climax.

Maybe a less political edge would be called for, but in this current world that's kind of impossible. I agree with cooperating with the authorities, but when they fuck up I also agree with calling them out on it. And what do you mean environmentalism is bad? Taking care of the planet because it's the only one we've got isn't bad at all. That's just...it's just wrong. Honestly, Ivy was one of those villains I kind of rooted for (pun) in the animated Batman show. I mean, not 100%, but her plots were usually creative and her weaponized plants deadly and really cool. I think if she had a modern update she'd be less an allegory for a tree-hugging hippie and more an herbal geneticist playing god to her engineered super plants.

And an end to believing killing the bad guys makes you as bad as the villains? We have that in the current DCEU, and it's one of the major problems that made me start this thread to begin with.

 

[Bone2pick]

@Quiet One You've taken the position that respecting the source material should be a priority (which I largely agree with), but you appear to have little knowledge of said source material. How is it that you feel up to the task of correcting the DCEU when you are unfamiliar with much of its major characters?

 

[Quiet One]

I'm not saying I'm the best person for the job. I'd have to do a lot of research on these characters before I was really up to the task. I do, however, insist that I and anyone else who replied to this thread would be better than who is doing it now.

My argument came from simply saying being a-political with a movie is almost impossible since people will look for a bias in everything now. Was also confused by your wording, saying that you'd like to see them cast aside certain things they already have and embrace darker themes that they already did. And they didn't do a good job. Also, environmentalism isn't bad. It just isn't. So that really confused me on where you were standing.

 

[Bone2pick]

Was also confused by your wording, saying that you'd like to see them cast aside certain things they already have and embrace darker themes that they already did. And they didn't do a good job. Also, environmentalism isn't bad. It just isn't. So that really confused me on where you were standing.

That was another poster.

 

[Quiet One]

Yeah, noticed after I wrote that. Sorry. Argument still stands. I - as well as I think a lot of people - would need to do research to make a DCEU work, but there's one thing we here can do that the current filmmakers seem to be struggling with - keeping characters faithful and consistent and writing a coherent, engaging story. Those are two things just about everyone here is really good at, that are also the DCEU's biggest flaws.

 

[Bone2pick]

there's one thing we here can do that the current filmmakers seem to be struggling with - keeping characters faithful and consistent and writing a coherent, engaging story.

I think you're underestimating the difficulty of writing well-liked superhero stories which feature iconic characters. If your first thought is: well, Marvel managed to do it—they did, but they're the exception to the rule. Fantastic Four proved a disaster. Ghost Rider was embarrassing. The X-Men have been hit or miss. Even Spider-Man couldn't get it together.

It's far from easy get these films right. Hell, it's not easy to get the comics right. Hop over to a comic book message board sometime and check out how much complaining goes on over there about unfaithful characters and less than engaging stories. Hint: quite a bit.

 

[Quiet One]

Okay, I can't really argue with that. I have a bunch of ideas and none I've really finished yet, so I know it's hard.

But man...this is supposed to be fun.

 

[Snakes & Lasers]

Sometimes I wish superhero films would be more... unabashed in their adaptations.

I think that's the DCEU's core problem. Their flagship character is a blue guy in red undies, and they're shying away from it too much.

DC is the universe where you should be able to get away with that... get away with anything. And just like you play Superman straight by bringing in the costume design but not calling attention to it, you do the same for other ridiculous elements... you treat them as normal for the world, and audience perception will take a cue.

I think this is one of the reasons people are able to look more fondly on the cartoon series, even for their faults, because they're able to be more straight up adaptations.


No doubt that it's hard, but I think in most cases they make it harder than it has to be. I think that's part of the MCU's success... not making it harder than it has to be. They still have problems, sure, but they also rarely fall below a certain baseline.


If given full power to make my own pet movie projects, I'd probably do... a Rogues movie. So many of them are great potential characters, but realistically they can't do much against Flash (and then you get overuse of evil speedsters as credible threats). So you get guys like Captain Cold, Weather Wizard, Captain Boomerang and... oh, I think a fourth but not sure who... and let them play off each other as they try to get a break.

 

[Bone2pick]

DC is the universe where you should be able to get away with that... get away with anything.

I think that's arguable. In order to have everything in the DC Universe play nicely with one another you have to make sacrifices. Which is why I generally prefer Batman in his own stories, preferably in Gotham. That's his world. That's where Bruce can really spread his cape.

When you team him up him with the likes of Green Lantern and Wonder Woman the flavor of his adventures change. For example, instead of prowling through one of Carmine Falcone's hideouts looking for clues, he's soaring in the Batwing near the White House fending off an alien invasion. The action, spectacle, and fantasy are increased at the cost of suspense, realism, and mystery.

There are even sides of Gotham that are generally treated like oil and water. For instance, Batwoman frequently deals with the supernatural/occult side of the city, while Bruce and Selina tangle with its more terrestrial threats—such as organized crime.

The characters and setting in Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy are incompatible with the greater DC Universe—which is perfectly acceptable as far as I'm concerned, the movies are incredible. Unfortunately for the DCEU, Man of Steel (the cinematic universe's first installment) was heavily influenced by Nolan's films. And seeing as his trilogy was never intended to accommodate the greater DC Universe it was unwise look to it for direction on how to bring the Justice League together.

 

[Cush Almighty]

@Quiet One

I'm surprised they're even giving Aquaman a movie. He gets typecast as the guy who talks to fish, and to be frank, he does talk to fish, sea life, etc and I love it. It's a useful and cool power. He's most useful in water, but even out of it he's still dangerous. He's stronger than the average Atlantean can resist the fire of machine gun bullets with ease. During the Grant Morrison run of JLA he gave one villain a seizure by tapping into the fish part of the human brain, The Basal Ganglia left behind from our aquatic ancestors. He also has a magic trident that can call down lighting like a certain Thunder God we all know. Don't sleep on Aquaman, he's epic and like Diana, he is willing to kill his enemy in the need arises.

His best Villains are Black Manta and Ocean Master which will be in his first solo film. Don't know what they can do for the second movie, but it will probably involve regime change and hopefully magic Atlantean relic that give you certain powers when using them. I have read his comics on and off throughout the years and he has enough to do a few movies for. There is also the 9th circle which hates the surface world and thinks Atlanteans are better off cutting off contact with them.

Wonder Woman is basically Superman without the supersenses and energy projection. She also trained in hand to hand combat and an assortment of weapons. I wish they didn't write out all the Greek gods in her solo movie. She has so many siblings that can come and ruin her life like the Goddess Strife in the New 52. Wonder Woman to me only has two good Villains which are Ares and Circe so her second movie will probably involve Circe as well as Cheetah. Diana is all about peace, love, and ending conflicts like war. That was her whole deal even when she was the Goddess of War a couple years back. If I had it my way, Diana's movies would focus on the children of the Zeus fighting for supremacy. One thing that must stay consistent with Diana is that she represents love. She left Themysicra to teach man's world that lesson.

My signature has a character in it named Maxwell Lord, a good guy gone bad that Wonder Woman eventually kills by snapping his neck. She will take one for the team, she'll bloody her hands so Superman or Batman won't have too.

 

[Quiet One]

DC is the universe where you should be able to get away with that... get away with anything.

I think that's arguable. In order to have everything in the DC Universe play nicely with one another you have to make sacrifices. Which is why I generally prefer Batman in his own stories, preferably in Gotham. That's his world. That's where Bruce can really spread his cape.

When you team him up him with the likes of Green Lantern and Wonder Woman the flavor of his adventures change. For example, instead of prowling through one of Carmine Falcone's hideouts looking for clues, he's soaring in the Batwing near the White House fending off an alien invasion. The action, spectacle, and fantasy are increased at the cost of suspense, realism, and mystery.

There are even sides of Gotham that are generally treated like oil and water. For instance, Batwoman frequently deals with the supernatural/occult side of the city, while Bruce and Selina tangle with its more terrestrial threats—such as organized crime.

The characters and setting in Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy are incompatible with the greater DC Universe—which is perfectly acceptable as far as I'm concerned, the movies are incredible. Unfortunately for the DCEU, Man of Steel (the cinematic universe's first installment) was heavily influenced by Nolan's films. And seeing as his trilogy was never intended to accommodate the greater DC Universe it was unwise look to it for direction on how to bring the Justice League together.

Which is why I would go for Batman's crazier villains to bring the silliness into the gritty world in a way that... while not perfect, might make them mesh better. Bring a new cinematic version of Mr. Freeze to the table, have makeup to make the Penguin really look like his famous character, etc. Batman's gritty and serious, but even he has some goofy villains, and introducing them might make stuff like that white house alien scene you mentioned feel more plausible. Plus the characters would be more fun to design.

One more thing: if you're going to bring Batman to the big screen and take him seriously, don't puss out. Forget you ever heard of PG-13 and go straight for R. How awesome would a R-rated DC universe be on the big screen?

 

[Cush Almighty]

As goofy as Batman's villains can be, their all scary, penguin. He's a notorious crime boss with little morality and zero loyalties to anyone in my opinion. His most goofy villain hands down is The Condiment King. Some how he can kill people.

 

[Quiet One]

@Cush Almighty...he's maybe a little too goofy, but I do see your point. Even the silliest villains can be threatening if you treat them right. I just find the idea of someone like the Condiment King being a titular villain in a Batman story to be...well...the kind of thing Schumacher would do in a Batman movie.

 

[Cush Almighty]

I would use him, crazy quilt or Kiteman in a scene for comedy. CK is a joke, but that's the point. Riddler could be a good advisery. He plays a game of riddles with Batman. First Batman thinks he just another idiot he has to deal with but soon fines out Nigma is his most dangerous foe yet. Maybe have Deathstroke appear in the movie?